Interviews Christopher Brosius and the Paradox of Perfume

Christopher Brosius and the Paradox of Perfume

08/07/14 20:59:06 (9 comments)

by: John Biebel

An interview with Christopher Brosius means you’re in for a lot of laughs—at least this was my experience, and I think most would say the same. Talking to the reputed “bad boy” of the perfume world had me cracking up for the majority of the time we recently spoke. Brosius, perfumer and creator of the ambitious and highly innovative scent-as-art house CB I Hate Perfume, started creating scents when he worked at Kiehl’s, custom blending many of the company’s then large assortment of perfumes into one-of-a-kind concoctions for clients. He knew he was onto something and thereafter started his own highly successful first company, Demeter, which brought the world such memorable, crystalline creations as Snow, Christmas Tree, and Dirt. He started CB I Hate Perfume in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn, and recently relocated to a larger Brooklyn space.
Photos by Michael Weiss
Brosius is a surprising mix of traits: He’s at one turn ironic and very entertaining, and at the next, studied, serious and exacting in his work ethic. But one thing is very clear—even at his moments of thoughtfulness, he’s a decisive man. He speaks with a lot of conviction and expresses a deep passion for art and creative expression. Perfume may be his language, but the breadth of his timbre runs from learned academic to frenetic composer. All laughing aside, Brosius is outspoken and straightforward when it comes to perfume topics, and he has much to say about the kaleidoscopic days into which the scent world now finds itself.

John Biebel: I’ve been reading through many interviews you’ve done, and I find that people have asked you many questions already; I hope I’ve come up with some novelties that are more interesting than the standard ones. I wanted to start by mentioning my first encounter with your work, which was the scent Burning Leaves.

It was a big moment for me; I had been a perfume lover for years, but hadn’t been involved in writing as I am now. I felt that this wasn’t an exercise in perfuming, but that you’d actually created a time machine. I was utterly transported on an astral plane. What do you think about that—that you’re not really creating perfume, but you’re actually projecting in time?

Christopher Brosius: To me, perfume has always been an art about time. It does take time to create; it takes time to reveal its story as it’s worn. Time has always been an element that’s been interesting to me as to what it can do. A good many people think that my work is all about nostalgia or memory, which isn’t really true; I’m really not interested in nostalgia. But, for me, it’s about that time when people encounter the work, which is always highly, highly individual. What that experience is precisely is not so much of interest, but the fact that people have it, and that it can be so powerful, that is really what interests me most about creating perfume.

JB: It’s interesting that you mention nostalgia. I find that nostalgia, as comforting as can be, can be a bit of a dead end in some ways, because it’s not necessarily a transformative experience, it’s more like just stepping back. So do you feel that when you bring something into the present, and someone wears your work, that that creates a new story which continues away from you and what you’ve made?
CB: Yes, absolutely, because I can never control the experience that someone has when they do encounter my work, nor would I want to—I simply put the experience out there for someone to have.

JB: You say a lot of interesting things about certain materials. You have many visceral and direct responses to certain things, which is really fun, because some people tend to say “I love this!” and “I love that!” but I noticed in one interview that you loved the smell of tomato leaves. This resonates a lot for me.

Growing tomatoes is really primal for me, where I want to eat the leaves and eat the dirt that it’s growing in. You’re one of the few perfumers that talks about the basic primal reactions to scent. This reaction I have, to tomato leaves, this rush of the senses, is very strong, and I feel as though you’ve tried to harness this in your work, and that you really embrace that, and ask the world to embrace these things too—to smell dirt differently, to smell tomato leaves differently, would you agree?

CB: Yes, I would agree, and I think I have spent a good deal of time bringing attention to things that are very much overlooked and certainly have never been a part of perfume or what perfume was really designed to be in the past. It really is about the olfactory experience, not just about creating an abstractly beautiful or very pretty thing, which is what perfume has traditionally been. I took a very different viewpoint in terms of what smells good because I was really aware that there’s a good deal more in the world that smells good than simply creating a pretty flower, or a pretty abstract “thing,” but in terms of why those things are important, the smell of dirt is pretty much universal: Every child has at some point, no matter where on the planet they are, played in the dirt, it’s just something that all children do, so that experience is very, very common, and everyone has a very particular experience of what that smell is. When I put a dirt scent out there, though, everyone experiences it in a very unique but very powerful way. Tomato leaves is a little more specific because it’s a very important smell for me. However, when I create that smell, and I put that experience out there, everyone comes to it with their very own unique perspective, whether that’s powerful or not is not something that I particularly control or influence.

JB: Thinking about your clients or the people who actually wear your work, do you feel that there could be a tendency to see the work you’ve done and see the “cleverness” of it, like “He’s bringing the overlooked scents into the realm of perfumery now, which they weren’t before.” Do you think that there are some people who miss the mark and don’t quite get where you’re going, or do you think there are no rules about how your work should be appreciated?
CB: I don’t think there are any rules, and lord knows there are plenty of people who just don’t get it, and that’s fine.

JB: You don’t do extensive advertising—your work is primarily known by word of mouth. That’s been pretty powerful for you. How’s that been working for, and do you think the quality of the scents is being your promoter for you?
CB: I think so, yes. You know it’s funny, I’ve always been of the opinion that if the work is good, people will get it, or, the people I want to get it will get it. I’m not here to impose on anyone. I don’t tell people what they should wear or what they shouldn’t. I will tell people they shouldn’t wear too much of certain things, or I might tell people “Please don’t wear this around me.” [laughs] But I think the whole word of mouth thing is something I really learned at Kiehl—why waste effort or time or money really trying to get the attention of people who really aren’t going to “get it?” If the work is good, they will figure it out, and they will come, and they do, which is great. I’ve seen a lot of companies spend more and more effort and more and more promotion with less and less return and that’s a huge problem in modern perfumery and a huge perfume problem with many houses’ financial equation. It’s becoming less and less workable. As a creator and as a businessperson, it really doesn’t interest me. Things should be as efficient as possible. Also for me, perfume is a luxury, and I really do run my company as a luxury brand. This is not something that’s essential, it’s not required. Therefore, it does detract from the real special qualities of what I do to be promoting, promoting—it’s just not necessary.

JB: I find that very refreshing, because one of the things I find to be a big problem with larger scale perfume promotion is that it’s trying to sell a certain lifestyle, philosophy, an image, even a certain person; “If you wear this, you’ll …”
CB: And I think this is completely and utterly against the point. I think that people need to develop their own personality. I’m not interested in providing this ... [laughing]

JB: To be a lifestyle coach and perfumer …
CB: My clients are quite smart enough to have their own personalities. They don’t need mine on top of that!

JB: It is an interesting area, isn’t it?  I have seen some perfumes that have literally tried to sell themselves by saying that you will be an individual, more distinctly “you” if you wear the following, but of course they’re trying to sell this to thousands and thousands of people.
CB: Exactly.

JB: But I wonder if we’re at a time now, though, when people are starting to look at that and say, “That’s not how I want to express myself.”
CB: I’m not sure that I’d truly be able to address that properly for a couple of reasons, because I really stopped paying attention to what “The Industry” is doing. I really don’t smell other perfumes; I really don’t look at what other houses are doing much. In many cases I have absolutely no idea. People have stopped asking me about trends because I simply don’t care. To a very large degree, I never really have. What everybody else is doing, and what everybody else wants, it simply doesn’t interest me. I really focus on what I’m doing, and what my clients really want and seem to react to the best. Every now and then I will put a perfume on hold—for example, several years ago I was working on a vetiver perfume, and I became aware that everyone and their grandmother was dragging out vetiver pefumes, it just seemed to be a race to get out more and more and more, so I thought: “I’m just going to put this on hold for a bit …” But by the same token, if I really feel that I do have something that’s good and finished and ready, it doesn’t interest me what everybody else is doing. It does drive journalists crazy, sometimes because if they’re working on stories about “Here are the latest kinds of perfumes,” I have to say, “I’m terribly sorry, I have nothing that really fits in.”  It’s just not what I do!

JB: [laughing] Fortunately, I do not have to fulfill any editorial needs like that! I was thinking about the fact that you split a lot of your work into series, and it reminds me of those children’s books that came in series, where the spines of the books are all the same. I’m particularly fascinated by the Secret History series—I am a Dandelion I particularly love. I know you don’t approach things from the point of nostalgia, but you seem to tap into childhood a lot. Can you tell me something about that?  Do you feel that there are important scents that come from childhood?
CB: Each in the series had their start from there, somehow or another, whether I was aware of that or not, but as I’ve said, these are all smells that define very important moments in my life and it’s a series of moments—like with Tomato Leaves, there have been many, many times when that smell has been important. But no matter how deeply or how much I might describe those particular moments, people might intellectually understand that, they might be able to connect to it on an emotional level and understand what it is I’m getting at, however when they smell that, they still can only have their own reaction to it, and even though I might talk ad nauseam about those particular experiences, there’s still no way that people can completely share those experiences—that’s the way we all work. That’s the way smell works. That’s the way we are as individuals. So even though I might reveal as much as I possibly can, those things remain a secret to me, and how other people experience those scents can only ever be a secret to them. So, that really is the paradox of perfume.
One thing that I do find the most interesting about it—there are other series where I make other interpretations or explorations of things that have been really important ideas or concepts in perfume, or even archetypal scents in perfume. These are things that culturally happen again and again around the globe and for thousands of years, but how we experience those things now are always completely individual.
Åsgårdsreien (1872) by Peter Nicolai Arbo, depicting the Wild Hunt of European folklore

JB: Agreed!  What I like about the Archetype Series is that you say it’s not about recreating a past scent, but that these things always change with time. So many perfumes are just about recreating the past. When you approach that Archetype series, how do you take into account the fact that there is modernity now where there wasn’t before?  And is it more or less exploring the scents that we smell in the modern world and add them into the archetype as it exists now?
CB: That’s interesting—to me, creating an archetype is inherently something that is as without time as can possibly be achieved. So with those, I’m not trying to look at the past, it’s really a function of including the past and really going beyond and encompassing what that particular smell is—whether it is the ocean, or smoke, or earth, or white flowers—to really step out of the concept of a timeline and encompass as much of what that experience is no matter where in the history of that scent you might be.

JB: That’s interesting, because that’s the opposite of what I’ve assumed: I was thinking that you move back for an archetype, but what you’re saying is that an archetype is right here, it’s always with us.
CB: Right. The Reinvention Series is more “Let’s step back historically and see what this might have been like,” or “Let’s move something forward and reinterpret it,” that’s really much more what that collection’s about.

JB: Because you go into many directions with your work, you must go through some sensory overload—how do you handle that?
CB: Not to put too fine a point on it, but sometimes I’m really just sick to death of perfume and all that goes along with it (laughing), and that’s when I find it’s necessary to take a step back, perhaps do something rather different, go somewhere, or do something or let my mind go in a completely different direction, and that’s when I can refocus, recharge and then get back to it. Also those are the periods when different kinds of inspiration come and I start working in perhaps slightly different directions.

JB: What are triggers for you in your creative process?  Are there specific avenues you walk down to ask the muse to come forward, or is it very stream of consciousness?.. that you’re just “hit” by things, or is it an investigation?
CB: Kind of a combination of things. It’s funny, I’m very aware of my stream of consciousness, so to speak. I’ve learned to observe it as it’s happening, and there’s a lot of important stuff that might come from that and sometimes something will spark my curiosity and then it does become a matter of investigation and really seeing where that particular trail might lead. And sometimes frankly, it’s just the happy accident. For example, it’s happened a few times in my career where I will want to capture a particular smell and I will work on it for ages to the point that it can become quite frustrating and that’s when I’ll put it aside and let it be, and come back to it when the time is right. Frequently I’ll be working on something completely unrelated and all of a sudden there will be this one specific combination, and without intending it, it becomes the foundation for that other scent that might have been frustrating me over there, and I’ll pull it out, and start working on it again. For example, recently I was working with a private client, and without having any intention to, created the foundation of a proper honeysuckle—to get to something that really truly does smells like honeysuckle is very, very difficult. This one wound up being precisely what I was looking for and intending. And I thought, “Oh, okay —great!” That’s a happy accident.

JB: I’m interested in hearing about a Christopher Brosius day. What’s a common day for you? (You can give me as much or as little information as you’d like.)
CB: Well, there really isn’t a standard one. I might actually refer you to the first chapter of Mary Gehlhar’s The Fashion Designer Survival Guide [laughs], it’s very much like that. I’ve frequently heard people say (in playful optimism) “Oh, your life must be so glamorous! You must spend all day just smelling things!” For anyone who runs their own business, there’s always a good deal of really quite dreary, boring stuff that needs to be attended to and a lot of my day is about dealing with that. Film and television people have long been frustrated because they want to follow me around with a camera journaling one of my days, and that’s really going to be dreary, because it may well be me just sitting blankly in a chair looking at notes or just poring through my computer, because much of the work that I do actually does happen in my head. I don’t spend vast parts of my day sitting with thousands and thousands of bottles and little droppers doing little tiny experiments constantly. I used to do more of that but as I’ve become older and more experienced, a good deal of the work actually does happen in my head. I’m able to arrange various smells in my head. So if I’m working on a perfume, frequently the majority of it does actually happen internally. Then when I reach a point that I’m really comfortable with, I will actually get out the bottles and pipettes and what have you and in very short order, put together the scent that I had in mind. It’s really not terribly interesting and there’s not really a whole lot to describe.

JB: [Laughs] But that has its own wonderful appeal, since you’re not setting yourself apart as someone who’s living this unbelievably glamorous life—it actually sounds like a rather hard-working job …
CB: Americans in particular have this concept of very glamorous lives, like film stars, that they have very glamorous lives. And from moment to moment perhaps they do, but the majority of their lives are actually very, very dreary and a lot of work. And the same applies to fashion designers, perfumers, anyone—there’s a lot of work involved, and the work is frequently hard and it’s anything but glamorous.

JB: Can you walk me through a perfume, and explain how it came into being?  Is there one you’d like to talk about more specifically?
CB: One of the problems I have with that is that when I’m done with a perfume, I’m done with it—it moves out of my stream of consciousness into a category where it exists, but my intention is on creating the next one. Some people will ask me “What’s your favorite scent?” and frequently my answer is “The one I’ve yet to do.”  Because while there are perfumes I’ve created that I wear very regularly, or often, depending on the season or my mood, I really don’t have a favorite per se because as a creator, the thing that I’m working on is that thing that is not yet done, and that’s the way it always goes. So sometimes even thinking about the process of how I got to a particular perfume becomes somewhat difficult because I’m done with it, and I’ve moved on.

JB: That’s a fair answer, and it says a lot about your work ethic, because you don’t want to rest on the laurels of something that you’ve already made; there’s something waiting in the wings that you want to work on next.
CB: Yes, that’s really how it goes. To really think about it—I’m just not sure that I could pick one—I can’t pick one to run through that process.  [laughs]

JB: Because you explore so much, and are willing to go in a lot of different areas, have you ever felt in your creation of a scent or research of a scent, that you encountered something that almost felt kind of evil?  Did you encounter something that almost spoke to you and said, “Don’t go here,” this is the dark side of scent, this is too powerful?
CB: I’ve certainly had requests over the years where my answer was a flat refusal. There was a period when Civil War reenactment was very, very popular and those people were constantly contacting me for the scent of canon fire and blood and rotting flesh and gangrene and I said absolutely not, and I have no interest in that whatsoever. My work is really about evoking a pleasurable response. For me as an artist it comes from a retrospective of Matisse that I once saw where he was once quoted as saying that a painting should be as comfortable to look at as your favorite chair was to sit in. And from having read a lot of Colette, which was very inspirational to me. It really is about exploring the pleasure of life. It can be painful enough, I don’t need to add to that with anything I’m going to put into a bottle. That’s never been terribly interesting. I suppose the closest I would have come to that might be some tongue in cheek sorts of perfumes that were inspired by Sax Rohmer and his Fu Manchu Novels, so there’s some evil there, but it’s ridiculous. [laughs]

JB: An incredibly campy kind of evil …
CB: Exactly. I once had a very strange reaction—it was to one of the Comme des Garçons perfumes where when I first smelled it, I thought “There’s something about this that smells evil to me.”  But it was a very weird reaction, and I can go back to that perfume, and I’m not sure if the formula has changed or what, but I don’t have that reaction any longer. I have absolutely no idea what would have triggered that particular response from that perfume, but the malodorous, the “bad,” it’s just not in my worldview.

JB: You’ve mentioned the Matisse exhibit, and Colette—is there some other writing, art, film that has opened your perceptions or made a big mark on you?
CB: There’s a huge, long list [laughs] Matisse and Colette, definitely—particularly Colette. It was really about noticing how she wrote about life, and that much of what she describes are really quite mundane experiences, and yet the way she notices and the way she observes is very unique, and shows those moments that are extremely overlooked, but are extremely pleasurable in one way or another. I think of any artist, Colette would be the most influential to how I think about perfume and what it’s for.

JB: I wanted to ask you about New York—I remember from my days there as a student, there was always this “us and them” feel, the creative types versus the Wall Street types, there seems to be these really different camps. You’ve lived there a long time, what do you think about New York now? What’s it like to be an artist living in New York?
CB: At the moment it’s very, very hard. The city has done everything it possibly can to drive the artists and creative people out of the city, and they’ve succeeded largely. It is very, very difficult to be an artist in New York at the moment simply because everything is so fabulously expensive. The minute artists might settle in an area where the rent is still cheap enough for them to live, the developers rush in and start ripping down and building up and yet another disgusting, gross bourgeois neighborhood is born. I saw it happen in Soho, I saw it happen in the East Village, I saw it happen in Williamsburg. It’s all about money, money on a loop, and New York has always been a city about money. But I’ve also been here when there were times when the creativity of the city was valued, and the money types realized that a good deal of their money depended upon the creative types and what the creative types were bringing to the city, and at the moment that’s really not of interest to New York. I’ll be curious to see how the new mayor might influence that. The old mayor was certainly a disaster when it came to that—he was really interested in turning this into one big Disney Land, and much of the personality of the city was eradicated over the last twelve years. I have always had a real love-hate relationship with New York. I really do hate being here. I think it’s an ugly city. I think it is a harsh city and I think it is a really unwelcoming city, but you’ll notice that I’m still here, because I’ve also come to realize that those are qualities that I might creatively be fighting against.
I was asked about six years ago to participate in this group exhibition at a gallery in the lower east side called “Leave New York” and they asked all the artists involved to do a work that was about leaving or wanting to leave New York, and I did a strange installation (which of course nobody got the point of because I was the only olfactory artist involved, so everybody was coming to the piece from a visual point of view, and I said “No, it’s not about how it looks, it’s about how it smells”) but I gathered up a bunch of trash in the neighborhood, it was a battered old night stand with some drawers missing, some concrete blocks, and some tar, and on top of all of it was a flask with a bright liquid that smelled like hay. And I realized that much of my work is fueled by the desire to get the hell out of here—which is about recreating the natural world very precisely and very exactly. If I were living in another part of the country or another part of the world, the work would not be quite the same. So as much as I detest New York at times, there are aspects of it that really keep me going.

JB: Tell me what you’re doing now—is there something you’re working on now you’d like to talk about?
CB: Now I’m really regrouping—last year was a real estate drama and the move (to a new location). So much of my time was taken up with the real estate stuff, particularly after we got the move done; it was a huge waste of time and energy.

JB: What are some other things besides perfuming, and worrying about the real estate and doing the bills and everything that are your simple pleasures?
CB: I’m really very fortunate that I do have a circle of really marvelous friends and they tend to be very interesting, very creative people and I love to spend time with them—I just got back from an art/music festival and that was marvelous. It was two days of looking at amazing things with amazing people listening to phenomenal music and just dancing, dancing, dancing— that was great, and I’m very fortunate that I do get to do that. Perhaps not on a “Let’s pitch a tent”-kind of way, [laughs] but I do go out quite a lot in New York, and I do spend a lot of time with my friends, and that is lovely and very inspiring in a way. I still do read an enormous amount, and since I’ve moved and have more space here, I have much more room to tinker and work on things that interest me. I’ve always loved making things, now that I have more room, I can make more things and I find that very satisfying.

JB: There’s all this buzz going on about all the new regulations in Europe …
CB: I’ve never heard anything more ridiculous in my life. If you’re claiming these materials can’t be used because 1.75% of the population will have to be rejected, all right—we’re going to look at how many people are allergic to chocolate. “Dear Belgium: You’re going to get out of that business. No more chocolate!”  Either that, or I’m just going to start putting the same sort of labels on my perfume as one finds in Europe on cigarettes. I’ve never heard anything so absolutely, utterly absurd in my life. The fact that lavender is one of the materials that is being forbidden I think is utterly and absolutely absurd. That is where aromatherapy began. Aromatherapy started with the scientific evaluation of why lavender oil was beneficial to people …  all of the marvelous things that it as a substance can do. So I think Europe, really and truly … it can just bite me.

JB: Thinking of “niche”, what do you think about the future of perfumery?  A colleague of mine mentions that you hear a lot about the difficulties for independent perfumers, but what about the opportunities, or in the industry as a whole?
CB: About the industry as a whole, again, I could care less. One of the reasons I’ve spent very little time over the past couple of decades in the industry or attending industry events is because they bore me to tears. I have heard the same whining since the late 90s. People are whining about the same conditions. They are basically reinventing the same wheel over and over again. It’s truly insane. They recognize there is a problem, they have absolutely no idea how to address it, and their response in how to address it is to do the same thing they did before but perhaps throwing a bit more money at it. There is so little innovation in terms of what happens, and yeah, it does make it a little more difficult for small independent people like me, but by the same token, it is what it is, and there’s not going to be any changing it, so therefore I’m not going to pay attention to it. I have my own agenda and that’s what I’m going to do. It’s interesting that you should mention opportunities, particularly with this whole drama that’s happening in Europe. That really does present some challenges, but it also offers, looking at it from a different perspective, a lot more opportunities as well. I think about my own future with regularity. [laughs] I mean, I’ve been at this independently for twenty years now, and I have no real interest in retiring any time soon, but at some point I’m going to get fed up with it all and then something’s going to have to pay for my old age. [laughs]
CB I Hate Perfume is located at 318 Maujer Street, 3rd Floor, in Brooklyn NY, USA, or visit  the official website.

John Biebel (johngreenink) is a painter, musician, writer and software designer currently living and working in Boston, MA. He is a graduate of the Cooper Union in New York City where he studied fine art, and he currently works as a software and web interaction designer specializing in human factors. He is a student of the scent sciences and takes particular interest in the history and chemistry of perfumes.


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Interesting and original voice in perfumery. Thank you CB!!!


Brilliant interview to reassure someone like me, that a fragrance should promote itself by simply being revered for its' excellence and the passion it inspires, rather than being touted as stunning by advertising and profit as the driving force.


Great interview. I really want to visit CB and get to finally know his creations... Congratulations for the article!


I love his answer to the question about the IFRA regulations!


Very interesting read. I quite enjoy mr. Brosius' outlook on life, perfume, and 'the Industry'.

Thanks for the article, John!


My first CB fragrance was Wild Violet, I was amazed by its naturalness. It has everything: grass, soil, flower and something else, that we can't see but feel about this flower.


Thank you for this great article about CB. I'm a big fan of his At the Beach 1966 scent - it is what launched me on my perfume journey and remains one of my favorites to this day. I adore tomato leaf notes as well - thanks to this genius perfumer.


great interview. I need to get over to that new location!


Wonderful, John!

I'll never forget Christopher speaking on a panel at one of the Elements showcases, wearing a black leather kilt ... :-)

Love CB's At the Beach 1966! I'll make that my SOTD!


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